Dr. Jones talks with Police Chief, Mike Ward, and the agency’s social worker, Kelly Pompilio, about the need for integrating social workers alongside our officers.
Transcripts are created using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcription and may contain errors. Please check the full audio podcast in context before quoting in print.
Blake: 00:02 Hello and welcome to the social work conversations podcast produced by the university of Kentucky college of social work. My name is Blake Jones. Here we explore the intersection of social work, research, practice, and education. Our goal is to showcase the amazing people associated with our college and to give our listeners practical tools that they can use to change the world. Welcome to season three of the social work conversations podcast. We’ve been so happy to do this over the last couple of years. This is our 31st episode and we want to thank you for your support. We’d love it if you would go to iTunes and give us a five star review. This really helps people find our podcast and follow us. We also welcome you to go to socialwork.uky.edu/podcast and follow us on social media, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram. We’re trying to create a community of listeners and responders to our podcasts, so please follow us on social media.
Blake: 01:07 Now let’s go to our next podcast where we’re going to talk with Mike Ward. Well, I’m joined today by chief Mike Ward from Alexandra, Kentucky and Kelly Pompilio, uh, who’s a social worker with the Alexandria police department. And it’s really good to have you on the podcast today. Thanks for coming.
Mike: 01:25 Oh, thanks for having us.
Blake: 01:27 So, chief, let me ask you a little bit about your background. You are the chief of police. You’re retiring soon, but, but you’re the chief of police in Alexandria, Kentucky. Tell us where Alexandria is and how long you’ve been doing that job.
Mike: 01:41 Alexandria is in Northern Kentucky, uh, which, uh, and where 15 miles South of Cincinnati. Okay. So we’re still a very, uh, suburban, rural community. Um, city’s motto is where the city meets the country. So, um, it’s, um, it’s close enough that I can be in downtown Cincinnati in 20 minutes. Um, but then I can am a, we’ve still got farm land in the city and, and, and whatnot. So.
Blake: 02:14 And how long have you been with the department?
Mike: 02:16 I’ve been with Alexandria for 18 years, so I’ve been a police officer now in Kentucky. I started in 1983 and prior to that I did four years as a, a an officer in the air force. So I’ve been doing this now for 40 years. Okay.
Blake: 02:34 And Kelly, you have, um, been a social worker for a while. You worked for the cabinet for families and children, which in Kentucky is our child protection system or agency, the department for community based services. Um, you worked there a while and then you found your way to this, this job. And I’m Alexandra as a social worker. Yes.
Mike: 02:56 So I graduated in 2004 and started my career at the cabinet. And then I have been with Alexandria police department since July, 2016.
Blake: 03:08 So chief, I met you a few months ago at M. um, PCI S training. Tell, tell us a little bit what PCI S is.
Mike: 03:17 Well, the acronym stands for a post critical incident seminar and it’s designed for officers and their spouses or significant others, um, who are experienced, who have experienced traumatic events in their careers or their lives and are having difficulty coping with it. So it’s a way for us to finally start addressing the PTSD issues that are so prevalent in our profession and oftentimes lead to suicides. And so we’re trying to reach out and touch those guys and gals that have been affected by it and give them some hope and let them know they’re not the only ones that suffer from that.
Blake: 04:06 And this is a fairly new thing that, that Kentucky specifically is doing right, with officers that have been injured or in some sort of a, an incident.
Mike: 04:16 Right. The, the PCIs model was actually developed by the FBI years ago. And um, I don’t know what they did with it, but it was picked up by North and South Dakota or North and South Carolina, excuse me. Um, and they kind of pioneered it for law enforcement and, um, we actually had, the first time we did it here in Kentucky, we had, um, uh, peer support folks from, Oh, I think we had them from, um, North and South Carolina, Georgia, Tennessee. I think we had a guy from Texas that was here. We had an officer from thank Florida came up. I had them from all over to help us get started. And, um, uh, and it’s, it’s just been an absolute tremendous program. And last year we got, um, legislation passed to for the state to fund it, um, three times a year. So, uh, it’s a no cost to the officer, to their, um, spouses. Uh, it’s free to come the, they put us up in a nice hotel and um, and all the foods provided. So it’s really a no cost, not just to the individual but to the agency. So, you know, we’re trying to make it, uh, so that officers will come to it in their agencies, will give them time to come as well.
Blake: 05:47 Yeah, that’s great. And I th I think that’s such a, um, helpful thing. You know, you and I have had some conversations and you’ve, you’ve been a police officer a very long, and I’m how traditionally if officers were involved in something like that or if they were struggling with mental health issues, they were told just to kind of walk it off and, you know, just keep working. And so I think this is such a good supportive way, you know, to help them into, you know, I have to help them heal. Um, Kelly tell us a little bit about yourself? You are a social workers, I mentioned with the, with the agency, but tell us a little bit about your background as a social worker.
Kelly: 06:31 Sure. So, um, I received my bachelor’s degree at NKU. And then shortly after that I started at the cabinet for health and family services, which is a state social work agency. Um, thereI did a variety of jobs. Um, I started off as an ongoing worker, which pretty much worked with families and children to keep them together or if a child is removed from the home, we try to do services to get that child back into the home. And then, um, from that position I went to centralized intake where I um, looked at cases that were coming in, reports that were received to see if they met criteria for an investigation. Um, after that I went into the investigation field and investigated child abuse, sexual and physical abuse cases. And then I became the specialized supervisor where I worked with all the child fatalities, near fatalities.
Kelly: 07:27 Um, I was at the cabinet for 12 years, um, when this position here at Alexandria came available. Um, throughout my career at the cabinet, I really worked closely with law enforcement, especially on the child fatality in near fatality cases. Um, and I have a background, my family history, my dad retired from Newport police department and my brother just retired in December from Newport police department. So I have that family background of law enforcement. And so it was a, a no brainer that this was the perfect fit for me. And so I quickly applied and luckily was hired on at the police department.
Blake: 08:04 That’s good. That’s good.
Mike: 08:05 That translates to, she doesn’t take any guff from any of the officers <ha ha>.
Blake: 08:09 Oh, we’re going to talk about that because I can imagine that that is a very, uh, specialized, you know, cops are real different, right? They’re real, they’re real different creatures. And social workers are different creatures as well.
Kelly: 08:23 So as chief likes to say, we’re tree huggers.
Blake: 08:26 Yes. Yeah. It’s so, so let’s get into that. How, how do you, well, let me, let’s back up. Mike, I want to go to you first and ask how you got the idea. What prompted you to think that your agency needed to hire a full time social worker?
Mike: 08:46 Well, there’s the long, the short answer to that. So I probably think you want the longer one to be more specific. I was at IACP headquarters, the international association of chiefs of police and I was there part of a working group, uh, to discuss law enforcement’s response to the national pretrial justice initiative that was just starting at the time we were discussing what happens to a young man, 20, 21 years old. I’m married, got a child construction worker, gets paid on Friday, goes out with a couple of buddies, has a little bit too much to drink, gets into a fight, ends up in jail for the night, can’t afford the bail to get out. So he’s passed to spend the weekend in jail until arraignment on Monday morning. Uh, he misses work Saturday morning, loses his job. And what social ills does that cause himself? Is his family? Um, the whole gamut. While most cops would say, don’t care, shouldn’t have gotten into a fight, Jenna gotten arrested, you, you know, be a little bit more responsible.
Mike: 10:06 You don’t have that problem. Well, that’s easy to say, but that’s not reality. Right? There was a chief there from Southwest West concert who made the statement, I just let my PSW is worry about that. And I’d never heard, I didn’t know what a PSW was. So, um, I turned to the guy from, uh, Pennsylvania on my right. And I asked, what’s a PSW? He said, I don’t have a clue. And guy from Texas on my left. And I said, uh, what’s a PSW? And he said, I think it’s one of them damn tree huggers. Well, that caused me to flip open the a iPad. Right? And I start, I’m researching. And I found that in Northern Illinois and Southwest West concen several years ago, they started a police social work program. And so that got me into researching it. Um, I reached out and spoke to the, um, uh, coordinator for Schaumburg, Illinois.
Mike: 11:18 And I talked to her on the phone. Um, the, the, uh, the whole concept of it, if I, when I started to look at my own agency, I’ve got 17 sworn, um, it’s a population of about 10,000. And at that time, two years ago when we were doing this, um, I actually use three years ago this month, uh, when all this started, um, we, our, our calls for service, about 60% of our calls are noncrime related. Well, what are you calling the police for if it’s not a crime related problem? Because people don’t know who in the world to call, right? They call nine one one. And so many times we’ll tell people it’s a civil issue or it’s a social, you know, there’s, we are not, we just don’t have that skillset. And, um, so I started looking at it from a perspective of how can I reduce the number of re reoccurring calls for service to the same address. Um, I’ve got somebody at this one, two, three main street and they are suffering from mental illness. Um, what do I do? Well, we decriminalize mental illness, rightly so, should have long time ago.
Mike: 12:53 But what do I do with that person when I get a call that they’re going crazy and causing a disturbance? Okay. I could probably lock ’em up for disorderly conduct or, or figure something out, but that doesn’t solve the problem. Right? It’s gonna reoccur when they come back. So that’s kind of the way. Um, I started it. Um, I presented it to, uh, uh, personnel committee at city council and lo and behold, they jumped on it. They gave me 30 days to come back with a job description and a policy. So be careful sometimes what you ask for.
Blake: 13:42 <ha ha> Right…
Mike: 13:42 You know, I walked out of that meeting excited, but at the same time, I, I’ve hired cops, I hire staff. I know what I need from a law enforcement perspective. I don’t have a clue what a social worker does. Um, I had a perception and my perception was they didn’t do much because in my career, all the forms that we fill out and we sent to the cabinet, there is a communication disconnect between the cabinet and law enforcement. And I’m, I don’t want to criticize that as saying it’s the cabinet’s fault. They’re overwhelmed. Those social workers have caseloads that are just, they, I don’t see how in the world they can handle all that with just one person. So it’s a bureaucratic issue. But nobody ever communicated back to me when I was a patrol officer, what they were doing for that family that I referred them to.
Blake: 14:51 Right.
Mike: 14:51 because everybody kept falling on wall. It’s confidential, right? But yet when there was a problem in that home, they didn’t call a cabinet to respond. They called nine one one and they sent a police officer down.
Mike: 15:05 So we had no idea what was going on.
Blake: 15:07 Right.
Mike: 15:07 So that was my number one thing was to eliminate that communication gap. And I felt the only way to do that is to have the social worker work for the police department. Um, so then I didn’t, again, I was kind of at a loss and I reached out to, um, a criminologist at NKU, Dr. Bob Lilly, uh, who I’ve known for years and um, called him on the phone and I said, Bob, I’ll buy you lunch. Let me meet you on campus. I got something run by you. And we talked about it and he was excited. And uh, um, we walked over and talked to, um, uh, Dr. Pope, who was the chair of the social work department there at the university. And um, uh, he, uh, he asked dr Tara McLendon to come in and sit down and, and talk to me about it.
Mike: 16:08 And I remember her and she laughs when I bring this up. She, if she ever hears this, she’ll probably want to get made. But, um, I, she asked me what kind of calls for service did I want that social worker to be able to help with. And I handed her a page of bulleted types of calls. Yeah. And she looked at it and she said, chief, there’s no way you’ll find a social worker that can do all of this. And I said, what are you talking about? She said, well, we specialize in areas. You’ll, we don’t cover all this. You won’t find anybody that can do all this. I said, doc, I got cops that cover that in a whole lot more every day. And some of them only have GEDS or just high school education. If I can find a social worker with a master’s degree that I don’t need to teach her or him how to be a social worker, I can teach them how to handle people in a call environment.
Mike: 17:23 That’s easy because that’s police related stuff. And these social workers are not first responders, they’re second responders. So, um, you know, the scene’s safe. Everything’s fine by the time they get there or they go with an officer. So, um, and, and so that developed a very close working relationship with, uh, uh, dr, uh, Tara and dr Dawn, her husband McLendon, who both teach there and they, they worked very close with us through the interview interview process and whatnot. I was, um, kind of taken back because as we were looking at resumes, um, I didn’t realize that there’s a difference between doing social work, but not being a social worker. So I’ve learned a lot. Uh, and what the, one of the biggest things Kelly taught me early on is that it doesn’t matter where you come from economically, socially, ethnically, anything educational. Um, people in crisis cannot self advocate because they’re too emotionally involved in it. So they need somebody to walk them through and to help ’em out. And so now for the first time in my career, um, watching our agency help people to the point that my officers aren’t not having to go back to those residents for similar problems because, uh, uh, Kelly and now, uh, Bruno who works with her as well, um, the two social workers are following through with these people and making sure that they’re getting the services that they need and the help that they need as well.
Blake: 19:22 That’s grea. I think you’re such a visionary in Kentucky for doing this. And I’ve thought a lot about this. You know, I’ve probably the past 10 years or so, I’ve, I’ve, um, really tried to educate myself about police culture. I see a lot of police in my therapy practice and do a lot of ride alongs and things like that. I did a ride along the other night and it seemed like most of our night was taken up by one call where we kept going back to this home and it was a young guy that got into a fight with his girlfriend. They had a small baby, you know, they both live there. Um, the mother-in-law lived there and you know, the officer I was with said, you know, we really can’t make him leave. He was not violent towards anybody, but he really didn’t want to leave, but it was just a domestic kind of dispute and they were stressed out, no money. Um, and he was just standing out in the yard and we just stood out there and talked with him for very long time. And finally we gave him a ride to a waffle house where somebody from some other city came and got him and took him somewhere. But that took up a lot of our night, just kind of, he, he hadn’t really broken any laws, but it, he needed some help. He needed some disposition to go somewhere. And so I really thought a lot about that case that we worked in and how he was trying to do work. And you know, really what he wanted to do was like, let’s take care of this call and let’s go to another when we had other calls waiting. But, um, it was a very kind of frustrating experience for him, I think. So I wanted to ask you, Kelly, what, what, um, what’s a typical day like for you or what do you, what do you do exactly in your job? Sure. Um, so every morning I come in and I look at RollCall and that is what the officers responded to on their shift. And if it’s anything to do with anything social service related, I follow up with the family or that individual. So, domestic violence, substance abuse, mental health, homelessness, elderly, um, anything that is social service related, I go out to the home, um, knock on the door, see what’s going on. Um, I’ve never been told no, they don’t want help and they’re very open to having me in their home.
Kelly: 21:46 Um, and then we just kind of process of, you know, what’s going on. So for like a domestic violence call, um, there was very early on when I got onto the department, um, there was a call out to a home for a domestic and I radioed out to the officer, um, to see if it was safe for me to come to the home with him. And so both of us arrived at the home and I quickly learned that that was, I think the fourth time that they have been to this home and a week and a half. And so, um, I process with the young lady and kind of figured out what was going on. They were high school sweethearts. Um, she depended on him for income, um, and he was abusing her. And so, um, she was very uncomfortable with filing for an emergency protective order and so we kind of processed that.
Kelly: 22:34 She still wasn’t ready to do that. Um, so I followed up with her the next day to see how she was doing and at that point we went down to the courthouse. Um, I drove her, we filed the petitions together and, um, then she had all the fears of going in front of the judge, testifying in front of him and talking about all the awful things that he had done to her. And so, um, I sat with her in court and prior to court I took her and showed her the layout of the court, you know, where everybody will be seating just to try to relieve some of those anxieties. And she came in and testified against him. And then, um, and then I worked with him as well, you know, to try to figure out, you know, what the issues were and, and got him into the services that he needed to be in.
Kelly: 23:19 Cause ultimately they wanted to, you know, get back together and have a relationship. And so that’s something that, you know, we worked on. And so those are just, you know, that’s a domestic violence case. Um, there was also a, a man who actually, it was my first day on the job that they responded to his house cause he was in an emotional crisis. He was a Vietnam vet. And, um, he described going down into tunnels and having, you know, to take care of some business there while he was in Vietnam and, and so he would have nightmares, um, or he would be lonely and, um, he would call nine one one an officer would have to respond or he couldn’t get out of bed for the day and just needed a cup of coffee. Um, I think at one point we were up to like 30 something calls in the year just on actually just a few months on him.
Kelly: 24:12 And so quickly I worked with him, um, with his doctor. He had, again, he was receiving as meds through the mail, so he hadn’t seen a doctor in several months. Um, so I contacted his doctor after he was signed releases and everything and talked with his doctor about what we were experiencing with him in our community. And, um, of course he had this giant table full of all of his medication and he didn’t even know what he was supposed to be taking. And so we kind of filtered all that, got some in-home services involved with them. Um, and he started to call me when he was having those kind of crisis calls or he called the crisis hotline, which he did not know anything about until I was able to give him that number. Um, and then I just provided him, he was really good on the computer and so I provided him some tutorials of other Vietnam vets and how, you know, they manage, um, their day to day.
Kelly: 25:02 And so I think there was a period of three months that we didn’t hear from him. Um, you know,
Mike: 25:08 we weren’t allowed to say his name because it was like beetle juice <ha ha>. It was that bad.
Blake: 25:14 Yeah. Yeah.
Kelly: 25:15 Now he would email me frequently, little jokes and he’d check on me to see how I was doing. Um, but just like those kinds of things, just, just getting people where they need to be in order to sustain in life. Um,
Blake: 25:29 so what I’m hearing is you, you really were developing a human relationship with him. Maybe that an officer, you know, they, they show up and take care of the situation, make things safe, but then they’re gone again right tonight call where you, you had this sort of ongoing relationship with him?
Kelly: 25:46 Yeah, and I mean our department is amazing. They will give him his cup of coffee, they will fix him as peanut butter and jelly. Um, we had a homeless guy that they would take him, you know, a meal from McDonald’s. They would give him shoes, they would give them clothing, but he was still homeless, living in our bus stop, you know, at the village green. And so, um, just meeting with him and getting him into shelter and all the barriers that he had to face getting into the shelter, that transportation, not having an ID to get into the shelter. And those were all something that, I mean, it took us all day, but we worked through it and you know, we got him in to shelter.
Blake: 26:23 Do you know how many other police social workers there are in the country? Have you ever looked at that ?
Kelly: 26:29 I’ve never looked at the country know. Um, I know in Kentucky there’s now myself and our second social worker at the police department and then Earl anger has a police social worker. Um, Cynthiana just a police social worker. Georgetown has a social worker and now Jefferson town is hiring a social worker. So that’s just here in Kentucky, but across,
Mike: 26:53 We’re growing.
Kelly: 26:53 yeah, I don’t know about the country.
Blake: 26:56 Yeah. So this is a very specialized working environment. There aren’t many of people like you out doing this kind of work. If there’s a social worker out there listening to us that, that is just interested in this kind of work that you’re doing. What advice would you give them about working with police or working in this environment?
Kelly: 27:20 Well, I think what chief kind of mentioned in the very beginning with, um, what Dr. McClinton said is in our field sometimes we’re so very specialized in a certain particular population. And so I think just keeping that open, I think the cabinet is how it really benefited me because we had to do holistic assessments on families. So we looked at their education level, their mental health, their physical health, their, um, partner relationships, their substance abuse history and, and just kind of compiled a whole assessment of that individual and knowing the different areas. And, and a lot of it is just, um, partnering with the community and you know, finding the resources and the services that are out there and making those connections early on I think is what helped me in this transition into the police social worker. Um, much easier I think. And then just also, you know, understanding the mentality of the police department, um, and you know, what their job is to do versus what a social worker’s job to do and, and getting those together.
Kelly: 28:26 Um, we have found that it’s been very beneficial with our victims of crime. Um, so myself and the detective work very closely together, um, and trying to figure out, you know, what was going on and then to make that victim more at ease. So, you know, a victim of sex crime, you know, I will always go out and meet with that victim. I will take her to the hospital. I will take her to her counseling services, do whatever we need to do to develop that relationship so she can trust us. Um, so that was, you know, extremely important to be able to do. Um, so I think just, just keeping an open mind that you can, whatever area, concentration of social work, just keeping an open mind that you may have to deal with all different populations and don’t specialize in one area. Cause you never know what it will lead to.
Blake: 29:13 Uh-hmm…just a real general approach. And then, um, you know, I’ve, I’ve noticed that when I started seeing officers in therapy, one thing that was helpful for me was to do ride alongs and re not as a therapist but just as a, you know, I’m really interested in your job and, and educate me about your job. And it has been a very big education about what policing is like, you know, and it’s, and it’s, it’s trauma based. It’s, it’s kind of, um, you know, driving around a lot and then responding to a suicide or a or, or a homeless person or a dead animal on the road.
Kelly: 29:53 absolutely.
Blake: 29:53 or so. And, and I think with social work, you know, we, we do have more time to sort of see things holistically and look at relationships and things like that. So that seems like a real different sort of mindset that you’ve had to also work into.
Kelly: 30:11 Absolutely – yes.
Blake: 30:13 So I wanna wind up with a devil’s advocate question for you chief. Um, we have lots of researchers, evaluators, people like that setting out there listening to this podcast and saying, you know, that’s really what a great story and it sounds wonderful and it’s what a great idea it is, but does it work? Does it, and how do you know that it works? Does it decrease your call runs, does it, um, reduce crime in some way? Are there, have you evaluated this program and tell me what you’re finding out?
Mike: 30:52 Yes – it reduces the law enforcement response to the address. Um, it increases the social work’s response. So, I guess from an agency perspective, if you looked at raw numbers a responses is a response, um, but what it’s doing, and to me the true template, so to speak, of, of success is that, um, for the first time I’m seeing families achieve success and work through those problems and we’re not getting called back for those same problems.
Blake: 31:35 And do you track that or is it just kind of anecdotal?
Kelly: 31:39 We are tracking. Um, in the very beginning we didn’t have a good tracking system because we didn’t know.
Mike: 31:48 It wasn’t out there.
Kelly: 31:48 it didn’t exist. I mean, I even talked with the social workers in Illinois at a conference and they’re like, we don’t have anything. We keep it on spreadsheets and Excel sheets. And I’m like, Oh, so we just receive, um, a database collection system. When was that?
Mike: 32:06 We purchased a software system in July.
Kelly: 32:08 and they specialized it to police social work. So we’re going to be able to start, you know, to track those numbers and, and collect that data. But I mean, I can speak on very specific cases of, um, we’re dealing with a guy right now with mental illness. Um, he suffered a traumatic brain injury and lost everybody in his family. And so he had no one and I think it was in August. We totaled, we had been to his house 66 times in three years.
Blake: 32:39 Wow.
Kelly: 32:40 And so what we did, which was really neat to see the community come together as um, we worked with getting him stable with his medication and his therapy appointments, but then what the community came together and all the local churches, which uh, we coordinated this was, they all took a piece of his house, whether it was the inside or the outside and have remodeled his house cause um, it was very dark, very sad. Lots of sad memories that were in there. And so we worked with him and um, he calls us but we, the law enforcement hasn’t received a 911 call and months. And so just showing that those reoccurring calls is extremely important and soon I think we’ll be able to collect that
Mike: 33:24 Well and you’ve got him giving back to the community as well. Cause you’ve got him going out and volunteering and doing some cleanup work and
Kelly: 33:31 Volunteers at a church and cleans up,
Mike: 33:34 you know, he is kind of trying to give back to those that are helping him, which is important, you know. Um, but uh, previously it would have been, uh, the only recourse I had was to wait until his behavior elevated to a some degree of criminality that I could make a BS arrest on just to getting into a system, into the court system. And even the mental health courts that do wonderful work. They sometimes they, that the courts are not the places for these folks, they just need somebody to kind of show them the right way and the resources are there in our communities. Problem is, is we just don’t know how to leverage them. And that’s where social workers are trained to find those, um, resources and how to leverage them. And, uh, as a police officer, I, I don’t have that skill.
Blake: 34:45 Well, this has been such an interesting conversation. I’m so thankful for the work that you’re doing and, and um, I really do think it’s, it’s visionary. I know there are like here in Lexington there the fire department, we have our college has a relationship with them and um, they’re hiring some social workers to sort of do the same thing, to follow, um, some of the folks that they work with and try to cut down on runs and really help them rather just respond
Mike: 35:13 Which is exactly what she does is a kind of a secondary job. If our fire departments, our paramedics or whatnot need her, they know, they just pick up the phone and call.
Blake: 35:24 We have to clone you now, I think Kelly.
Kelly: 35:27 ha ha.
Blake: 35:27 you and we have to get some clones of you going around the country. Thank you all so much for coming in.
Mike: 35:32 You’re welcome.
Kelly: 35:32 Thank you.
Blake: 35:36 You’ve been listening to social work conversations podcast. Thanks for joining us. And now let’s move this conversation into action.
Jason: 35:46 This production is made possible by the support of the university of Kentucky college of social work, our Dean, Dr. Jay Miller, and all the faculty and staff who support researching contemporary social problems and prepare students for the social work profession. Hosted by Dr. Blake Jones, produced by Jason Johnston with thanks to our webmaster, Jonathan Hagee. Music by Billy McLaughlin. To Find out more about the UK college of social work and this podcast. Visit socialwork.uky.edu/podcast